The Chief's Blueprint: With Jason Corthell

EP72-The Chief's Blueprint

00:00:00 Cinnamon: It's the first responder, the first to get the call, the first on scene, greeted by God knows what, pushed beyond the limits that they don't even set. Then what happens? You're listening to After the Tones Drop. We're your hosts. I'm Cinnamon, a first responder trauma therapist. 

00:00:26 Erin: And I'm Erin. I'm a first responder integration coach. 

00:00:30 Cinnamon: Our show brings you stories from real first responders, the tools they've learned, the changes they've made, and the lives they now get to live.

00:00:49 Erin: A quick heads up before we start. We want to acknowledge that some of the content we discuss on our show can be triggering for some listeners. Some of our episodes may touch upon themes like traumatic experiences, PTSD, suicide, and line of duty deaths. We understand that these topics are sensitive and might evoke difficult emotions. If you are currently struggling with your mental health or have experienced traumatic events recently, listen with caution. Now, if you're ready to proceed, let's begin.

00:01:22 Cinnamon: This is the first time that we've recorded this early in the morning, Erin. 

00:01:26 Erin: Yeah. Jason got us going. He's like, let's do it, which is hilarious. 

00:01:29 Jason: I signed up for a time. I saw the first available and I was like, I'm going to take that time slot. 

00:01:34 Cinnamon: As to Midwestern Ohio girls, we kind of forget about those other time zones. So welcome for breaking the seal on before noon, cause some of us still have that morning voice. So Jason Corthell is with us today. He is a Marine veteran and he served from 2006 to 2010. And we're gonna have to figure out the math on this because I also know that he started serving with Harris County Emergency Services in 2004. So I am not great at math, but I'm a little curious how one started before the other. And you have created your own initiative called Ironclad Wellness that... takes you out and about talking about your own journey from post-traumatic stress to post-traumatic growth.

00:02:24 Cinnamon: And wanting as a leader at this point, you are a training chief to be able to be the tip of the spear, so to speak, going out there as somebody who's experienced it, who's in leadership and making these conversations normal, which is how you and I actually met was... I kind of wonder what a fly on the wall would say who just saw us sit at that fire pit and start talking about things that why did Aerosmith that nobody wears pop in my head. But the idea that we're like busting right into this mental health conversation, the suicide conversation, we're talking about the unshareables. And there were a couple other guys at the fire pit. And so if they were the youngins... know what they were thinking, but we're really excited to move that conversation to the fire pit, add Erin, and keep it going. 

00:03:21 Erin: Welcome, Jason Corthell. 

00:03:24 Jason: Thank you guys for having me. I appreciate it. 

00:03:26 Erin: Yeah, absolutely. Okay. So, Jason, and this is what we do, and Cinnamon kind of joked about how we'll start talking, and I'm like, dang, I didn't hit record yet because there is so much important stuff we want to squeeze from you today. And I think that the most important thing first is... okay, so Cinnamon mentioned you're a veteran. She mentioned you're in the fire service and now you are an entrepreneur and leading this movement with Ironclad Wellness. And how did all of these worlds collide? Where did it start, I think is the most important question to get you to where you are. 

00:03:59 Jason: Yeah, so, I mean, obviously there's a level of servitude that I carry with me that's what I consider natural, have always been drawn to service. And I think a lot of it comes from the hereditary side. My great grandpa, grandpa and dad were all firefighters. So I'm a fourth generation firefighter, which is amazing and rare these days. So I try to cherish that. And I remember as a young teen, probably 13 or 14, I would see fire trucks go by and I would wonder where they're going and what they're doing. And I'm like, the only way to figure that out is to be one. 

00:04:35 Jason: And that kind of kickstarted the idea of what I wanted to do when I grew up. So here I am and it's been a hell of a path. The first fire department that I served in full time was a city and the city side of the assistance that I was trying to get when I was in my darkest times was subpar at that point in time. I think a lot of it had to do with where we were with mental wellness at that point. And we're talking like probably 2011. So we're talking a while ago now.

00:05:09 Cinnamon: So subpar is a generous term. 

00:05:13 Jason: Yeah, lacking subpar, just not good, I guess you could say. So went through divorce, went through a lot of struggle, had a catastrophic injury, and it kept me out of work for eight months on the job. And I realized that my job was keeping me alive and keeping me sober somewhat because I was on duty. And to answer the question in short, the reason that I do what I do is because I know that there's another side and it's so much better than what these folks are experiencing right now. And so to be able as a chief officer to get up in front of, I hate the word subordinates, but to get up in front of peers and teammates and say, look, I'm a chief officer. I've been given so many chances to succeed.

00:06:05 Jason: And I finally stuck with it and I finally succeeded and got promoted to chief officer. And a lot of times I feel like I don't deserve it. And there's times I got to kick myself and be like, dude, you've been through it. I mean, I'm like, not only do you deserve it, but you need to take advantage of your platform and it's not a celebrity platform, but it is a platform to get up there as a chief officer and speak to these young firefighters that are coming into the profession.

00:06:31 Erin: Gosh, did you see my smile when you said, I don't want to call them subordinates, I want to call them peers. Like to me, there's so much in that. That is the reality of it is these are your peers. And this isn't a dictatorship. And I think that is where the gap is in a lot of agencies and departments is the fact that, oh, all of a sudden you get this title and we are no longer in the same brotherhood. Like you cross over to this dark side as we hear. So just to say like, we are peers, period. That made me smile. 

00:07:07 Cinnamon: Even the accessibility to the benefits of the union change. When you further, you get promoted. It's like, there is that clear crossing to the dark side. You are no longer one of us. And the other day I asked somebody, are you attending this thing? Because we locally had our biannual meeting here in the state of Ohio for our IAFF union and someone that I know belongs to a local department with a local number said, I'm not part of it. And I was like, oh, that's right. You're a battalion chief. So there is that both philosophical as well as the literal division. 

00:07:52 Jason: And firefighters are assholes too, right? Like, let's be real. I have myself being one. So when I first promoted, I was the district chief. I was on B shift, B shift burners is what we went by and we loved each other and we did a lot of things together. And the golf invites and the kids' birthdays and new year's parties, all those invites would come in, man. And we would all be jamming together, going to work, talk about the crazy times off duty. And it was a big family. And then you promote to an office chief, right? 

00:08:24 Jason: We're actually called day walkers. That's the name that they gave us all now because yeah, we worked nine to five. And so anyways, I stopped getting invites. And so in my mistake and me being a young executive chief officer, I just stopped going to stations. I stopped communicating. Really? I still ran the program, ran the mental wellness program, ran the training program, did well, but I didn't feel comfortable inserting myself in their firehouse anymore because of that. And I've never told them this. I've joked about it, but I've never told them this. 

00:08:56 Jason: And earlier this week, it was Monday. I had a firefighter come to me. He's a captain on my old shift and he's like, why don't you ever come around anymore? And I'm like, because I'm not one of you guys. Like I have to be impartial now to other shifts and all this stuff. And I was like, why does anyone want me to be around? Like a chief's coming in the building, like everyone hush and clean the bathrooms and wash his truck. And like, you know, I don't want to make them feel uncomfortable. 

00:09:24 Jason: And he's like, dude, you are an enjoyable person to be around. We miss talking to you. And I'm like, okay, cool. And so the other day I went to a station and I was like, I'm only here because I hear you guys are crying that you missed me and they joked with me and invited me for dinner and stuff like that. So it is true. I mean, there's a huge gap there that I don't think has to be there anymore. 

00:09:47 Cinnamon: It sounds like the gap is not created necessarily by the promotion. the gap is created by the story attached to the promotion. 

00:09:55 Jason: [unclear] And the person. If you're an asshole and you treat your people like crap, they probably aren't gonna want you to come back around. They probably do want you to stay in the office. 

00:10:05 Cinnamon: But they didn't like you when you were on shift, if you were the asshole. So nothing changes, nothing changes. But that idea that I still can think the first time I read the oath is that idea, and I get it, I'm a social worker, we have something similar, and it's something I swallowed down a long time ago, but for you guys, it just feels a little bit different that you are always the firefighter 24/7. 

00:10:31 Cinnamon: So at what point do we rethink that as far as like you're a human first who has a bunch of buddies, and just because you can't go to the shift holiday party because it's easier for you to see no evil, hear no evil, because you've got the access to the write-ups and the D drive. That doesn't mean that you can't still go and engage. And even if that looks like a little more formal, where rather than staying away to be bipartisan, you go everywhere. On every shift. And that's your bipartisanship. 

00:11:10 Cinnamon: And to me, that's building relationship because if you are a day walker, if you are on the dark side, I want to at least have had a couple conversations with you because if you're the guy that I have to come talk to about the fact that I've been drinking every minute of my 48 ALF, then I want to be comfortable with you regardless of if you're on a truck or in a desk chair. 

00:11:37 Jason: Sure, absolutely, that's good. Yes, 100% agree.

00:11:42 Erin: Yeah, and then there's this other side of it. I was talking to a chief of a small agency and he was saying, I want to be able to be that person. Obviously he was at a wellness conference and he wants to bring this into his people. But he was also like, and then there's the other side that they come to me, they unload, we're in there for 40 minutes and then I have to go back to work and put on this hat that is a bunch of things I didn't exactly wanna do that happens when there's administrative responsibilities. 

00:12:10 Erin: And then I feel like, I am leaving this person in the lurch. So it's like, I can't win. Like I have to either ask them to leave because they need to take the next day off and regroup or get support. So it's still almost shows up as insensitive because thank you for sharing your soul with me. And now I have to put on this hat and go run shift and do this stuff that people in responsible positions do. Can you kind of add to that? Does that seem like another issue? that might be lingering around? 

00:12:42 Jason: Yeah, I think I understood what you were talking about. And so I always tell people in leadership and in your personal life, right? Like in your professional bounds and your personal bounds, and this goes for anybody, not just first responders, you always should have somebody filling your cup and you should always be filling someone else's cup. When your cup overflows, you've got to be able to pour that into someone else's cup. And so I know as therapists, you all have somebody that you talk to. 

00:13:10 Jason: And that's kind of the same way that I've lived my life. I have people that I pour into, but at the same time, when I'm like, man, I got to shut this down and put on my professional hat now I can go to my supervisor who just by chance is one of my very good friends and I can talk to him about whatever the hell I need to, whether it's professional personal. So I would say having a person that you can pour into and mentor and coach is absolutely a necessity. But then on the flip side, having somebody coach you and mentor you is absolutely a must have in my opinion. 

00:13:42 Erin: The chief stuff, the responsibility stuff, that is just one small thing. And it was important that we touched on it because as I shared before, like it was really challenging watching these folks say, we really wanna see change. We know we need change. We're watching our peers kill themselves and our chief gives zero shits about it. And how do we interrupt that? How do we make him see? And what a helpless feeling to watch these folks do that when we know and a lot of folks that we are connected to, including yourself, are working their asses off to try to change this culture. And I keep seeing people say like, we need to do more, we need to do more. And I'm like, what in the hell else can we do? 

00:14:24 Erin: Besides take people out that are an inconvenience that won't change their ways. It's like, we can wait for retirement, but who's to say the next guy is not gonna be the same. We can make it mandatory, but it doesn't mean it's gonna change people's beliefs. Right? And so I appreciate you touching on it a little bit just so we can hear from someone that is in a leadership role, like, hey, this is a big deal. And hey, you've got to show up and not just say this is where things need to change, but also like be the example of what that looks like. So I know that it's important for you to touch on you being a veteran and the military side as well as the responder side of it. And so I'm wondering if you would be interested in sharing a little bit about that.

00:15:12 Jason: Yeah, absolutely. And just to kind of rewind back to what you said about the fire chief's not doing anything. And I agree to the naked eye, that's what it looks like. And that's what it seems like. Where there's smoke, there's fire. But I would say this before I go into the veteran first responder realm. A lot of times chief officers have spent their whole lives fixing problems. We're the best reactors in the world. We don't know what the hell we're going into. We know that when the bell rings, we get called, we go to the scene, we fix it and we're done.

00:15:44 Jason: I think a lot of times these chief officers feel like they need to do something, but they don't know how. And I think that scares the shit out of them from my personal experience. And they want somebody to pawn something off. I went to my fire chief and I said, hey, I think we need this program would you be good with me taking it over? Yeah, sure. Do whatever. I mean, essentially that's basically what I was told. And when I came back and I presented him this box, essentially a lunch kit of services, I'm like, look, this is what we have. Can I have a meeting with you and answer all your questions? And he's like, absolutely. 

00:16:21 Jason: We went in, answered all of his questions and here we are today. And so a lot of times it's not that chiefs don't give a shit. It's that they're scared that they don't know how to go about it. And that's shameless plug for Ironclad Wellness. That's what I do. That's where I come in and I can speak to an organization or speak to a chief officer. Be like, look, I will help you guys out with these services. I will help you obtain these, maintain them. I will coach you, I will mentor you. Whatever you need, I'll be there. 

00:16:50 Jason: And we can build a program and you don't have to have any hands on where you can be completely involved in it, whatever you choose, but we'll build you a program. And so I think that's important to touch on. Because, you know, like I said, you spend your whole life reacting to problems and fixing problems in a pretty quick fashion and mental wellness is not like that. And so it scares the shit out of old school firefighters that are now chief officers that have been trained to react for 25 years, 20 years. 

00:17:18 Jason: And now they're telling them they have to be proactive in something.  And that's rough. That's where the misconception is. I think with the general public, firefighters and chief officers. So I know that there's probably a few out there that legitimately don't give a shit about mental wellness, but I think the majority of them. Yeah,  I think it's a misperception. I think they're just scared because they don't know how to do it. 

00:17:42 Erin: Yeah, don't know how to do it. And then, okay, well, what if I do something and it doesn't work and then people think I'm an idiot? And then it's really ruined for everybody else—

00:17:49 Jason: I'm just gonna stick to what I'm good at. Yeah, and we see that a lot too. We see fire chiefs and presidents send, CEOs and all this stuff put their thumbprint on something so they can say, I did this, I did this. And they don't want to have a black eye when they try to put their thumbprint on a mental wellness program that completely flops. Because that changes people's lives. You're dealing with people's lives at that point, your own people. 

00:18:16 Jason: But when you break it down, you're in charge of saving people's lives 24 seven. Like you're the fire chief. Like you are the ultimate responsible party for saving people's lives. So why aren't we doing this? Why aren't we taking this initiative and providing our people with a wellness program? So that's where I'm at with that. 

00:18:34 Erin: Well, and the thing is, like you guys have a handbook. There is a plan. You've done trainings. You know how to do your job. That's easy peasy. But when it comes to this like uncharted territory, like I'm not a social worker. I'm not a therapist. What the hell do I know about wellness? You know, that's a whole different realm of responsibility. And to do it well... my experience is one, what happens if you're just vulnerable and you speak to your people like, you know what, I don't really know what I'm doing here, but I'm seeing that something needs to be done. So let's just like work together to figure this out, even if it's sloppy. Like come up front and say, I don't know what I'm doing. What's wrong with that? But I know that's a whole another thing. Like I don't want my folks to think that I'm weak or dumb or whatever. So it's very tricky—

00:19:20 Jason: What are they gonna do, fire you, fire you for being vulnerable? I mean, I... I don't know what it is. I think it's a deep ingrained thing that we deal with that's slowly going away, thankfully. But I think at the end of the day, just having the services provided from what I enjoy doing can be a huge boost to any organization. I work with two organizations in Texas right now in talks with them about their programs. And I can't wait to get out there and help them and boost them along.

00:19:49 Jason: And it's not like, all right, here's a box of... mental wellness, you take this and I'm going to go back to Houston and call me if you have any issues. It's a partnership. It's a long standing relationship that I want to have with these folks. And by no means am I a therapist at all. I've seen probably enough of them to get my certification, but I'm not a therapist at all. But I do know the benefits of it. And that's what I try to communicate. 

00:20:14 Erin: But you hit so many important key points. And you also said shameless plug for Ironclad Wellness. But the reality is that is part of what we're here for is to let folks know that the services that you offer do exist, and that you are in a position to have gone through the shit and found solutions and that's what matters. I imagine that is like the big key point because you have created this process of healing, whether it's through therapy or whatever you've used, you can pass it on like, hey, this is what I've noticed works and you don't have to know why it works or anything else, but these are the resources.

00:20:51 Erin: And perhaps that is a good segue into the veteran first responder world and how it affected you and how you ended up saying like, I've been through the shit in various ways. It's so much so that it was important to me to create this service for others to be able to kind of avoid or prevent or at least make it not so painful. So now we can rewind back if you want to. 

00:21:15 Jason: Yeah, absolutely. Yeah, I did. The veteran realm of PTS and what these folks go through. And I say these folks, I was never a combat veteran. So I never served in combat. I did serve four years in the military. The break in service that Cinnamon referred to was straight out of high school. I joined a volunteer fire department to see if it was something I really wanted to do. And so from 2004 to 2006, I was part of that volunteer fire department and they helped me go through fire school and everything. So graduate fire school. And I'm like, okay, I'm going to go into the Marine Corps and be a firefighter in the Marine Corps. And then I'm going to get out and I'm going to go back to it. 

00:21:54 Jason: Well, as fate would have it, did not become a firefighter in the Marine Corps. I actually worked in JAG and law, which was completely different from what I wanted to do. And then I got out and I literally flew into Bush Intercontinental Airport at like 10 in the morning. And I drove straight to the fire station. I didn't drive to my house. I didn't go see family. I drove straight to the fire station to tell my fire chief that I was back and I wanted to be back with the department. And so that's kind of my story.  So 2006, 2010, I was not a firefighter, but 2004, 2006, and then 2010 and beyond.

00:22:28 Jason: So I've seen, and I've had a lot of friends commit suicide that were combat veterans. And so with that being said, I thought about it long and hard because there's studies out there that talk about veteran PTSD and they've studied the World War II side of things and they've studied the Vietnam side of things. And they're like, why were more people affected by World War II than they were Vietnam or really any other war? And the one thing that kind of I picked up on and read about was these folks that were in the Vietnam war, it's not that they didn't come back with a bunch of garbage, right? Like they did. And a lot of times they didn't even talk about it. 

00:23:07 Jason: And that's because they have a good switch that's developed. Like a good switch they can turn on and off because when they were in Vietnam, they would go out on their missions. And then a lot of times they'd go back into society in Vietnam, Hanoi city and all these areas, and they would essentially take the load off, drink, hang out with women, what have you. And so they had this switch that they would just turn on and turn off and turn on and turn off. Whereas nowadays, even in the war now. When we're talking about Iraq and Afghanistan, there's no switch.

00:23:45 Jason: You are just on 24/7. Like you're not chilling with the locals at a bar drinking in Afghanistan. That's just not happening. So that's kind of the difference that I've picked up on. And really when it comes down to it between veterans and first responders, veterans are macro dosed PTS, like they're macro dosed. They go over, they serve for eight months, a year, a year and a half. And they're in this crap. They're in this garbage and they bring it back home with them. And with first responders, it's a micro dose. We're doing it for 20 years and it's whatever your schedule is. 

00:24:25 Jason: Say we're doing 24 48. Every third day, you're going to get dose of shit. You're getting a dose of garbage and then you're expected to turn it off when you come back home, but you have to prepare yourself for another 24 hours on the second day. And so it's just this micro dosing of PTS. And that's really what I try to say to people to bring a light to it. And we had a chance to sit down with a very, very, I would say prestigious individual that works within the government, the US government, and explain this. 

00:24:58 Jason: And they were completely blown away at the fact that they had no idea that first responders were having these issues with PTS and suicide. And that just... really reaffirmed what we are doing, you guys included. And I wanted to make that known. And she was like, look, I know the veteran side for sure. And I know that there's a lot of veteran help out there, but what you're doing on the first responder side, she's like, that's amazing. She's like, I've never heard of that. 

00:25:29 Erin: What? I know I'm like, what? It just blows my mind. Okay. 

00:25:33 Jason: But we live in that arena, right? Like we live in that world. And so it's hard to sometimes look in the mirror and think that one, you're making a difference. You're not spinning your tires, but two, are there still people out there that don't know about this? Because I've devoted six years to this thing. And I'm thinking, we're making progress. I even got told one time that, are there too many mental wellness programs? Are there too many people talking about mental wellness at conferences, so on and so forth?  And there's no such thing. I mean, as long as you're not being detrimental to the cause, and saying off the wall shit that's way outside of your bounds. I don't think there's ever going to be too much of that. 

00:26:12 Jason: When I see a fire conference or I see a leadership program and there's not a mention of mental wellness in there, or even just physical fitness, that pisses me off now, it pisses me off because that topic's neglected. We're going to go talk about saving babies, kicking down doors and all this stuff, but then we're not going to talk about the person that's doing that action, may not even be alive to complete it. You know what I'm saying? So why wouldn't we talk about that? That should be topic number one, that you should start out with that. Because if you don't have that firefighter there, nobody's doing anything.

00:26:45 Erin: Right. Yeah, and then what about what happens when you kick in the door, you find the baby and you can't save the baby? Then what happens? And I say what, like I'm so shocked, but the truth is like, and maybe it's because I have, I've been in relationships with first responders, I do understand, but... it isn't something that is talked about. And I can't, obviously I didn't know how bad it was until working directly with this community, but it still is shocking that people would actually think, oh yeah, no big deal. 

00:27:15 Erin: But you're right. Like they don't know the severity of the things that you guys do. Even now with our military from the time of World War II when you had to take a boat back over and it was a long, long trip and you had your buddies there with you and you were decompressing. Now you can hop on a plane and be from Afghanistan and Germany like that. And then you're from Germany to the US like that. And now you're back with your family at a welcome home party. And everybody's clapping and people are getting up during speeches and moving around to get cake and people are going in all the different directions. 

00:27:57 Erin: And it's like unnerving to the person to have that much chaos. And it's actually a very negative experience for a lot of folks. When you compare that to first responders and we talk about like, you know, everybody wants their commute to be as short as possible, but there's a cost that comes with that. How do you see that that makes a difference from the time we would have to take a big old ship back over from Europe to the US versus now, either the short flights or the daily commute help? What do you think we've lost with some of that technology for the military, but then not just now starting to think a little bit more about how our first responders are just getting deployed in more rapid intervals?

00:28:50 Jason: I'm gonna talk about the Vietnam vets and whatnot. I didn't wanna come across necessarily as they don't have some stuff going on. They just hit it really well, right? Like you hear people talking like grandpa never talked about Vietnam, never talked about his time in Vietnam. And I think some of that has to do with technology. Like Sin said, we have a lot of news outlets now that tell us what's going on. So we don't need to ask a lot of questions anymore, but back then, the only way to get those answers was to ask them, right? And they were probably tired of talking about it. And so they did have a little bit of a good switch. 

00:29:26 Cinnamon: They also got attacked coming back. They were getting the welcome home soldier kind of atmosphere. So that'll shut somebody up. Like, I don't want to talk about it. So I would even say there was a lot more suffering behind closed doors simply because they were very quickly and for way too long labeled the bad guys. And so it wasn't safe to talk about what happened or how they were feeling about it. 

00:29:54 Cinnamon: Because why would you be having nightmares about burning babies when you did it. You stood there and watched it happen. And that's where there's that disconnect between what the public knows. And I think that's why we have to include a lot more of that moral injury into the conversation and make sure that we are very clear about the delineation between the two, between post-traumatic stress and moral injury. 

00:30:23 Jason: I'll have to send you guys an article Dr. Fletcher, she's who I work with, with the program with. She's not an MD, medical doctor, not a psychologist. She's a doctor of business. She works at University of Houston, but she was also a volunteer firefighter with us. And so she's been super integral in essentially drafting our documents and making it not look like a third grader wrote it because that's how I roll. Anyways, she did a report on moral injury with Jeff Dill from the Firefighter Behavior Health Alliance and a few others.

00:30:23 Jason: I'll have to send you guys an article Dr. Fletcher, she's who I work with, with the program with. She's not an MD, medical doctor, not a psychologist. She's a doctor of business. She works at University of Houston, but she was also a volunteer firefighter with us. And so she's been super integral in essentially drafting our documents and making it not look like a third grader wrote it because that's how I roll. Anyways, she did a report on moral injury with Jeff Dill from the Firefighter Behavior Health Alliance and a few others, and a massive report is called the yellow ribbon report. 

00:30:57 Jason: And I don't know if you guys have heard of it or seen it or not, but it's awesome. It's an awesome read, but it was kind of the first of its kind. It was a couple of years ago when it came out, but I'll send you guys the link for sure, but to answer your original question, when we talk about reintegration time, reintegrating into society, I would say that it's almost the same because you have these folks in boats and Navy ships, mostly crossing back into the United States. And you're still in that mode, right? Because you're still with the people that you served with, suffered with, fought next to, and not even that you might even be next to a blank space where somebody once was that was lost over there. 

00:31:43 Jason: And so you live in that for a week, however long it takes to get back to the US shores. And now I don't know what's worse. I can imagine both of them have extreme downfalls. And now you get home, you get a flight home, flight to Germany, flight to Europe from the Middle East. And your buddy who was sitting next to you on the flight over there isn't there to fly home with. And then you ask to dispose of it quicker than what these folks were. And I think that's kind of the lines that you were kind of trying to talk about is it's immediate.

00:32:20 Jason: The reintegration right now for our U.S. military is almost immediate. There's not a lot of stand down operations. There's not a lot of counseling, not a lot of things going on. At least when I was in that reintegrated you back with your family, it's exactly like you said, they get off the plane, they go on a bus, the bus shows up and it's chaos. And I think that the citizens have the best in mind. They are happy to see their loved ones, but those loved ones, man, that is a lot to take on at one time. And so you brought up that point and I just think that's awesome. I've never thought of the differences between reintegration and what that looked like between different eras of troops. 

00:33:02 Cinnamon: I was just thinking about the discretion that you talked about of the Vietnam era folks. I knew a guy when I got sober, he was in Columbus and I just knew him as the recovering heroin addict. He had some of the key indicators of the culture of poverty. And we had had a situation where somebody thought they were funny, and it was a person that I'm friendly with. And I opened up a church basement door, and he was right there, and he jumped out to scare me, thinking it would be funny. And he was a military vet, but he was much younger. So it was like he went to boot camp to a few years, then was out. 

00:33:46 Cinnamon: So... I did not take any offense to what he did. I know he didn't mean any ill will, but I ended up on the ground on my belly. And of course that becomes a spectacle because he is mortified. I'm a little bit embarrassed, but not much because I didn't do anything wrong. I just, I didn't, that was not a choice. That was just what my body did. But over to my left at the corner of the church was this gentleman. And he was standing there and he saw what happened. And he looked at me and he's like, you okay? And they said, yeah, I'm okay. And he goes, Vietnam. And I said, my house. 

00:34:31 Cinnamon: And it was like, he immediately spotted post-traumatic stress reaction. And as soon as he saw me have it, and I had known this person for at least a year. And that was the first moment that he had told me that he was a Vietnam vet. And when we were like after the meeting and we were in conversation, he said specifically, people don't expect me to have any problems because all I did was sit in the back of the plane and open a hatch, but I was the one dropping the bombs and it was like, as much as I didn't like to do what I did publicly and wish that hadn't happened, because you know it takes that adrenaline dump a minute. 

00:35:19 Cinnamon: I was so glad that he was able to witness that because, you know, it's one thing to find a community of other drunks is another to have these horror stories within your drunkologue. You don't think people can understand and they just think you're a junkie. They don't have any idea what you're numbing. And I've been told, it was a gentleman that I knew that was actually the movie of Black Hawk Down, he was there. And we were trying to get him off a heroin. And he was like, honestly, Cinnamon, if you can't fix my PTSD, I'm not gonna stop using because it's better to be high and possibly dead than it is to be clean.

00:36:01 Cinnamon: And these are who were bringing home and then letting to hang out to dry. And so I don't know how that fits in the context. But I feel like those are important stories to share. They're not necessarily the guys that are going to go to the veterans homeless shelter, but they are struggling. I didn't know at the time how to help him. I hadn't worked with first responders yet. And I didn't even know how to wrap my head around the idea that he would rather be using heroin or dead than to have to go to sleep at night without it. And that just tells you the crisis, like how bad that is.

00:36:48 Jason: That's good. 

00:36:51 Cinnamon: It's hard. It's now like wah, wah, Debbie Downer. 

00:36:54 Erin: Debbie Downer. 

00:36:56 Cinnamon: No, it's fine. No, I think that you hit on some key and important points. And I also think that it's important to highlight the fact that like trauma does not discriminate. You can be a clinician and hit your stomach because of exaggerated startle reflex or somebody that's been at war or that has run into one too many burning buildings or had the officer involved shooting. And it's still the same. The response in our body is still the same. So I think that that is what's so important about what you just highlighted, Cinnamon, is it doesn't matter what you do, you can be affected by trauma. 

00:37:31 Cinnamon: You can be affected by the symptoms that it brings up and really be struggling out there. And so normalizing this conversation is really important. And would you say Jason, that that's kind of what you're doing with Ironclad Wellness is like normalizing this conversation, making it more digestible and easy for folks to understand as you go into these different departments or is it conference style? Is it one on one? Is it all of the above? How does that look? 

00:37:58 Jason: Yeah, so I offer a bunch of different services, document drafting is huge, peer support training classes, and just a plethora of different things, mentoring, coaching, full program wellness builds, speaking events, whatever they need, I try to make it attainable for them. And it is a for-profit venture. It's turned into that. But I say that because all of that goes into my 501C3, which is Guardian Grounds Ranch, I'll say it, which is Guardian Grounds Ranch, which is another initiative that I am in charge of to try to bring facilities to the state of Texas to be able to help veterans and first responders free of charge. And so all the money I make from Ironclad Wellness, which is not much now, goes into Guardian Grounds branch. 

00:38:51 Jason: So I will say that. And as far as the barriers and stigma, I will say this, we've gotten to a point now where I was sitting in my office yesterday and someone yelled down the office hall what was for lunch. And because that's the big topic of the day in the office, right? And so then one of our other chief officers stood up and was walking down the hallway and he yelled that he's out on lunch because he has a counseling appointment today and like announced it. I mean, to probably seven or eight other people, there's no holds barred. Just I'm out, I have a counseling appointment today. And that's the culture in the administration side now. 

00:39:29 Jason: And so it takes time though. And that's the big thing is patience. As I said before, we're used to seeing a problem, fixing the problem, and going on to the next one, that's what first responders are and mental wellness is not like that, it's a continuous journey. And so I think a lot of people, when they're like, oh, we're going to open this can of worms and we're going to be stuck doing this for the rest of our lives, that is correct. You will be, but it's going to be a benefit to everybody. That's a part of this thing. And just goes back to... being able to provide services to organizations and chief officers. That's like, look, I don't expect you to know how to do this. I don't expect you to know how to do any of it. 

00:40:12 Jason: You can be as involved as you want or involved as you don't want to be, but I'm going to be there and I'm going to take care of the situation that you have. And you don't have to devote any time to it. Just throw a little bit of money aside and let's get this thing rolling. Another thing that before we get too far, I wanted to mention, I have the opportunity to speak obviously across the nation. And my most valuable, I would say, impactful speaking events happen with non-first responders because I get to bring awareness to the general public. The most valuable is when I get to speak at clinician conferences. 

00:40:49 Jason: And I've done two of them so far. I've done one in Austin, which is the Texas addiction professional, something or other it's TAP. So that's the name. And I've done another one at the Hope conference in Arizona, the Arizona suicide coalition. And speaking to clinicians is frustrating, not because of them, but because of their hearing, their stories of how they've tried to reach out to first responder organizations and been turned away. And the number one question I get after I've spoken at those two events is, how do I get in to help first responders? 

00:41:22 Jason: And it is treacherous. And I tell them, I'm like, look, you cannot send an email to the fire chief. That does not work. It will go straight to the trash. You need to find a peer support member. You need to find somebody who's on the physical fitness, mental wellness side. Your last effort needs to be the receptionist because, and I'm not genderfying any roles or anything, but generally the receptionist is a lady and she probably runs shit. And so you need to get to her and then she will tell the fire chief, hey, this came down, we need to address this. Right. And so, that's kind of where my head was at with them. And I didn't mean to get off topic, but it was important. And I wanted to mention it before we wrapped up or went on any further. 

00:42:08 Cinnamon: Yeah. No, I think that that's so important because even when I was at the beginning of this, when the folks at the place that I was employed at the time I started working with them, the first time they went out, they got a thanks but no thanks. And it took like another year and a half for the city to come back and say, these guys aren't doing as well as they say they are. Can you come help us? And if I was in private practice, I wouldn't have been able to pull off yet what I did because I just went MIA at the clinic and stayed at the firehouse for like eight months. 

00:42:49 Cinnamon: You just didn't see me. People were like, where'd Cinnamon go? And the answer was like, she's probably in a firehouse because... if I dabbled, that wasn't going to break through. I ingratiated myself. Like they could not get rid of me. I ate meals with them—

00:43:04 Erin: Your piece of furniture.

00:43:09 Jason: That's what it takes. 

00:43:10 Cinnamon: I had, and here was the thing, is that I was still getting a paycheck despite not producing billable hours to cover myself. So in private practice, there's no way in Hades that I could do what I did because I wouldn't have the means to financially support myself for that long. But it got to the place where I knew the admin, I knew the middlemen, I knew the on-the-truck officers, and I knew the roughnecks, and I treated them all the same, and I talked the same no matter who I was talking to. I expected to be talked to the same regardless of who I was talking to, because you're not the boss of me.

00:43:57 Cinnamon: And so the thing that I feel like I was getting back then and I still get is that being stuck in the middle as a higher up leadership, because if you're just looking at the org chart, you see the chief at the top. But once you're behind closed doors with that chief who's like rubbing his head and like trying to work out stress, they're also middlemen. I got a phone call yesterday, somebody said, do you want to change the world with me? And I was like, okay, I'm a little intrigued. What do you got? 

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Part 2 Lei

00:44:26 Cinnamon:  And I was like, okay, I'm a little intrigued. What do you got? The thing that came up about how do we talk about suicide prevention is there are so many of us who do the right stuff. And then there's the barriers of the rules. Well, I couldn't do this for this person because somebody else had more seniority and this job has to be capable of doing this thing, even though the primary job is this. So how do we start talking about not just saving lives within the confines of the existing structure, but how do we start talking about changing the structure? And I know you guys get access to different information and it's on our Hex, but what happens to you all when you cross over to that side that you know, and we don't, and you can't tell us, because we have people dying even when everything is in place to help them.

00:45:25 Jason:  I think we lose brain cells. That's what I heard at least the white helmet takes away brain cells. 

00:45:31 Cinnamon:  Lose brain cells.

00:45:33 Jason:  Yeah. Lost brain cells. Yeah. And that's straight from the reliable sources of the firehouse coffee table. But yeah, I feel that exactly what you're saying is what has happened at multiple organizations that we've dealt with. And I've had conversations with chief officers from other organizations. And it's like, hey, we had a part-timer in our organization that had some struggles that needed to get some help. And he was a full-time with another department. So I'm calling this other department and I'm like, look, this is your guy. I need to make you aware of this. And literally the chief's words were, thank God you guys have a program because we don't have anything to help this person.

00:46:12 Jason:  Can you help them out? I'm like, yeah, we got them, we got them. And so that's what it takes. It takes a chief officer to not forget their walk, where they came from, and to also start document drafting before these issues even happen. We talk about building resiliency and being proactive. And what I try to help with is let's build these documents. Let's put these policies in place that protect your people for when they come to you and say, I have a problem and I need help. Okay. You're not going to get fucking fired. We're going to get you help. We're going to find you help and we're going to have our standards you have to meet. But beyond that, we're going to make sure that you and your family are okay. And they're good to go.

00:46:57 Cinnamon:  Okay. So can you break that down for us in terms of what documents are you drafting? When you say policies, like one of the things that Erin and I are working on right now is a critical incident protocol or admin isn't looking at the folks involved in saying you good. And if they say yes, because of course they're going to say yes, then they don't call us. And I'm like, we're literally on retainer. Why aren't you calling us? And well, we asked and they said they don't need it. So we're trying to put something in place. So what are these documents that you're drafting to support? Whether it be the actual program or a wellness program or the agency or department as a whole.

00:47:41 Jason:  Yeah. So we ensured that our drug and alcohol policy intertwined with our mental wellness policy, because a lot of times, firefighters that are struggling mentally are turning to substances. And whether that be alcohol, pills, what have you, that's what we're getting into. And so we made sure that those things tied in together. And so when I talk about two overwhelmingly important policies that need to be drafted, one is your mental wellness policy, which is an encompassing policy that covers peer support, chaplaincy, and clinicians. And it aligns all three of those services with your department and what your needs are. But they're all three documented to be independent of one another.

00:48:24 Jason:  So me as a chaplain, I'm not going to go to you as a clinician and be like, hey, this person is struggling. Can you reach out to them? Because automatically that pokes a hole in our confidentiality and our program. On the other side of that, when we talk about the drug and alcohol policy and what our expectations are, we have a reasonable suspicion. Avenue as well. And we just got done with that training. And that's the big thing is making mandatory training saying, look, if you have a problem, you have a grace period where you can come in and say, look, I have a problem. I need to get help. If you get caught and you're only sorry because you got caught, or you only want to change because you got caught, that's a whole different Avenue that we're going to have to go down. It's not somebody coming to you and admitting they have a problem. It's somebody who got caught doing something illegal. And so that's our difference. That's one side of the tracks. That's other side of tracks. Now that doesn't mean that we're just going to hang them out to dry. We've had employees who have left this organization, who have been fired or terminated that were in clinician care at the time, and we kept that relationship with them so they could finish their clinician time out. 

00:49:32 Jason:  And that was important for us to do as well. So documentation, having peer support policy and expectations and ethics. And then chaplaincy, the same thing, having a policy for chaplains and their expectations and their code of ethics, and then clinicians and doing the same for them. And then drafting the MOU for the clinicians in the fire department, the memorandum of understanding to contractually come together. And you talked about being on retainer and it's similar to what we've done with the MOU. And then, so you have all that and then you have this drug and alcohol abuse policy. You mirror that all together and you make sure that you cross-reference it and it all lines up, and you have a good foundation to bring forward. If someone comes down and they're like, well, where the hell did we have this process? And you're like, in our policies, here it is. But it takes a proactive organization and fire chief to do that. 

00:50:24 Cinnamon:  So I have a question, maybe the curious devil's advocate. So let's say I don't come forward and I get caught. And maybe it's amphetamines or painkillers that I maybe even taking as prescribed. Or maybe it's an alcohol problem, but I'm terrified to come forward. Even though I know that I can, I'm embarrassed and I'm ashamed. And so the only way that everybody finds out is because I get caught versus initiating the need for services. Is there a difference between the folks who only want to do it to save their job and didn't come forward versus the folks who didn't come forward because of shame and embarrassment before they got caught, but now they're caught. And how do you differentiate if you do those two different folks? 

00:51:24 Jason:  Yeah, that's tough. That's a tough question. It's a good question. I think that comes down to essentially knowing your people honestly. And that brings to another point we just talked about like, getting out to fire stations, right? Like making appearances and breaking down the barriers of day walkers versus firefighters and what that looks like. And we made sure in our reasonable suspicion policy and our drug and alcohol policy to annotate that every situation is completely dynamic and will be dealt with on an individual basis. Similar to mental health, you can't paint a broad brush on everybody. So if this policy is being pulled out, and we're enacting on it, there's going to be a multitude of circumstances that are completely different than the next person we pull that policy out for. 

00:52:13 Jason:  And so not to dodge the question, but to kind of answer it, I guess in short is everyone's going to be dealt with on an individual basis. We had an individual in our organization that missed three shifts in a row. Okay. So we're talking like 96, 120 hours of shift because of alcohol. We just can't have that. Like we can't have that happening. And so that person was terminated. We gave them chance after chance after chance, and they were in clinician care. But when they got terminated, they said, can I still finish out my clinician don't care? And I said, absolutely, you can. I said, we're not gonna take that away from you. Oh, and so there is still a little bit of a continuum of care there that we provide. But again, it's very situational. If someone's taking amphetamines and they're prescribed whatever, okay, or they're taking pain pills, they're prescribed.

00:53:07 Jason:  And we send that off to the lab and it comes back and the lab sees that it's positive. The lab contacts that individual directly and says, can you provide me with a prescription for what this is? Yes, okay, here. When we get it back on our side, on the fire department side, when HR takes a little bit, it's negative. And it hasn't always been that way, but it is now. And that's for a good reason. One, you kill perception immediately like HR gets a ding, all this person's high as a kite, we need to get them off shift, they're a piece of shit. All this stuff. We take all that away now. And I know that's probably common sense to most, but we just figured that out not too long ago.

00:53:48 Cinnamon:  That's a beautiful, perfect answer. We can create policies and we need to create policies and part of the policy needs to say, these are a universal problem with dynamics actors that require an individual approach. I'm literally trying to get out all the yeah-buts. So I'm not trying to be a pain or put you in a corner. I really want for our listeners.

00:54:15 Erin:  Interrogate him.

00:54:16 Cinnamon:  Yeah, I want for our listeners who I know are out there, they're gonna hear what we're talking about from the perspective of their position. So I used to have a training called, he's not an asshole, he's symptomatic. So I'm buddies with the guy who just got fired. And I'm on shift with this asshole who got found out. He gets to stay. He didn't tell, neither one told. But it's different circumstances because my experience with my buddy is you canned him, but now you're keeping this jerk. So how would you advise admins and chiefs, assistant chief, battalion chiefs, captains, whatever, to address that because it's going to affect collaborative effort, it's going to mindset morale, all of those things. How do you say behind closed doors, things can look a little bit different and you have to trust us that we are looking out for the best interest of each individual and that one needed a huge wake up call of losing their job to go hit rock bottom and get what they need. Where this one, maybe you don't see it, but behind closed doors, he's weeping, and he's talking about how he is ashamed and he's embarrassed, and he just didn't wanna come forward. But you can't say that. So what do you say on the surface to not make it look like saver-tism or my buddy got the shaft and this guy got the kick gloves treatment? 

00:55:54 Jason:  Yeah, it's a delicate balance between confidentiality and information. Like what can I give out and what can't I give out? And I think that that, that issue, whether it's mental wellness or have you, you know, this person got promoted and this person didn't, and we liked this person better and they didn't get the job. Why, why, why? And I think what this comes down to is again, I'll reiterate proactiveness, proactiveness, gaining trust in other arenas before this situation even comes about to where your people know that if they have a question, that we acted in the best interest of that person and the organization in other arenas. Say we want condiments bought for us at the station. We want to make sure that we always have ketchup and we have mustard and butter and all this stuff, right? Because we don't want to bet. 

00:56:44 Cinnamon:  Mayo and Miracle Whip.

00:56:46 Jason:  Absolutely. Yeah. For those weirdos. So what I'm saying is you build trust with your people outside of that mental wellness realm. And then when those situations do occur, they already trust you. They're going to have questions. I'm not saying that they're not going to ask questions that they're not going to engage about it and what have you on the other side of that. It's important for the chief staff and the company officers to be on the same exact page when those instances happen. Nothing should be kept secret. That doesn't have to be kept secret. I've tried to impart that on our own leadership. They keep some stupid stuff secret. And I'm like, you don't have to because the guys and girls are going to make up what they don't know and it's going to be wrong. Okay. 

00:57:32 Cinnamon:  And worse.

00:57:33 Jason:  And so, and worse. Yeah. Because they're bored. Right. So we're going to make it a shit storm and see if we can get underneath the chief skin, which works sometimes. But I think at the end of the day, understanding that your organization has been built on trust and taking care of their people and one more thing, when we talk about the reasonable suspicion policy, we talk about the drug alcohol policy. One thing to keep in mind to address with your folks, if you need to revamp that policy or you need to create it, one, I will help you. But two, it's not to fire people. It's not an attack on the people. It's taking care of them. You know, saying, we understand that there's these needs, right? Compassionate care or compassionate use for marijuana is huge right now in Texas, right? Because it's not legal in the state of Texas unless you have that prescription. 

00:58:24 Jason:  And so I'm like, look, if you have that prescription and you pop positive and you're a little bit over because you just started and you don't know what the dosage looks like or what the dosage is and you're a little bit over, we will work with you if you work with us. And so we're trying to protect the person. We're trying to protect the organization at the same time. And communicating that upfront before anyone pops on THC is extremely important. Now, if you're like five times the dose over, all right, bro, you really jacked up this time, right? We're gonna have some serious issues here. But as I said.

00:58:58 Cinnamon:  It's Friday. It feels like a Friday movie.

00:59:00 Jason:  Yeah, it's Friday. It's Friday, yeah. But everyone's a little different. And so it ties back to the uniqueness of the situation, but your people have got to trust you in a lot of other realms, besides when it comes down to firing somebody and keeping somebody because of a drug or alcohol problem. You set that tone with so many other things besides that.

00:59:22 Cinnamon:  Okay, again, A, an answer that makes sense. You're kind of screwed in the moment if you haven't done the work leading up to the moment. And you talked a little bit about don't email the chief. You got to find your wellness person. But at the end of the day, we know who the decision makers are, right? So we've got all kinds of folks that are in this movement, trying to move it forward. And we've got the confrontational folks who are going to be like, what chief's in the room? And literally will say a city and that it's like the crickets, right. You're like, that's going to get back, right? Or we've got somebody else who's like, you know, hey, chief, we really want your buy in on this. But how would you advise folks who just want the buy in? So people aren't coming in saying.

01:00:16 Cinnamon:  We can't get our peer team up and going because the chief pisses on it. And the chief says things like, well, you know, I think this whole mental health PTSD thing is bullshit. Like how do we appeal to them in a way that maybe they, it's not even about themselves as an individual that we can get them on board to at least give the thumbs up for something to happen in their department and at a minimum, they keep their mouth shut about their own feelings that it's bullshit. And if you can change their minds too, that I would like to know that one as well.

01:00:52 Jason:  My fire chief's mind got changed, which was wild for me. He's very self-proclaiming when it comes to his mental wellness, so I'm not sharing anything that he wouldn't want me to share. And we're not gonna go into his problems or anything like that, but this is somebody who questioned somebody who wanted a service dog at the firehouse, and said, why can't he just take his pills and be happy? And now our fire chief is probably one of the number one clients for our clinicians. And it's amazing. He's a changed person. And do you know what? I was gonna say this and I think it all ties together. Do you know what made him go initially was tax season? When we were trying to fight for more tax money from the citizens and his stress level was through the roof.

01:01:45 Jason:  That's what made him go. And so I'll say this fire chiefs are very driven by numbers and money. So when you bring to them an idea and a program that's like, look, here's how much it's going to cost and we're going to get these services from this cost annually, can we do this? And he comes back and says, no. Okay, cool. Well, guess what? I'm still going to do a peer support program because that's pretty much free. And I'm also going to do a chaplaincy program because that's usually pretty much free as well. And we're gonna start there. We're gonna start with those two elements and we're gonna see the improvement. We're gonna see people get on board with it and then we'll get some momentum and then we'll go after the professional counsel. And that's not something that you obviously divulge to the fire chief right away, but it's something that you can do. I mean, shit, we've been doing peer support and the fire service and there's first responders since the beginning of time. We just haven't really known it.

01:02:37 Cinnamon:  It's called the picture table.

01:02:38 Jason:  Yeah, there hasn't been a title and there hasn't been training on it or anything like that. And thank God there is now because now there is legitimate peer support interactions that need to have somebody who's trained as a peer support specialist there. But before, I mean, we were doing peer support and we just weren't knowing it. And as important as peer support is, I have people that come up to me and they're like, chief, I really enjoy what you're doing with the peer support program, but I just don't think it's for me, but I still help people. And I'm like, dude, you are just as important as a peer support specialist, because sometimes people don't want to talk to the peer support specialist, because sometimes people want to talk to the boots on the ground, the rough around the edges guy that doesn't become this big fluffy person to come talk to. You know what I'm saying? 

01:03:21 Jason:  And so I try to empower them to, to when you're talking about that with the fire chief and you're bringing that program to the fire chief, they care about money. They care about the budget. A lot of times they seem robotic when it comes to mental wellness and they don't have a grasp on it or whatever. As long as they're not crap talking mental wellness, you have hope, right? You have hope. And if they are crap talking mental wellness, go to the assistant chief, go to the deputy chief, go to the receptionist, okay? And so that's what I'm talking about. There's multiple avenues. Come to me. I will call the fire chief and be like, hey, chief, wanna have a conversation? I'll cold call them. I don't have a problem with that, but those are some avenues that I would venture down if I was presented with the situation where a fire chief was not bought in at all and I was a firefighter or a company officer and I don't have direct access to a fire chief. 

01:04:12 Cinnamon:  Thank you. Because I do think that me or Erin coming in and talking, it could go either way, right? Whereas you as a peer, it's going to sound different because they're so numbers oriented, it's going to come across like we're selling a product. And we have to take care of ourselves financially. This is our full time job, different than a peer support, but that's not why we do this. There's things that can be negotiated. So there's one last question that I have, and then I will quit the interrogation because I think as you were talking about the documentation drafting and you were talking about policies, the one thing that I would like to know what you do or what your agency does, or if you are at the point that your agency even needs this. When there is a critical incident, do you have a protocol that does not involve asking people who are afraid of consequence or possibly in shock or not even aware that they're not good? Asking their opinion, whether or not they need it. 

01:05:21 Cinnamon:  Like it's just like, I would have a client where we would come up with a policy. If you had three runs after midnight or one run after four AM, you texted a code word to your spouse and you went in the front door and up the stairs rather than the back door through the kitchen where she and the kids were waiting for you and then you were an asshole and traumatizing your children yelling over shoes and that takes out the subjectivity. It's not about whether or not you think you're good. It's did I have two runs after midnight or another run after 4:30 a.m.? So what would you say for agencies that are starting to talk about this, have good intentions, but just don't know that it's not the ideal situation to ask the people in shock and the people that you supervise, are you good? And if they say, yeah, man, I'm good. Cause of course they're going to say they're good. Take that subjectivity out of the way and put the objectivity in to keep everybody safe. What would those bullet points be for you?

01:06:23 Jason:  Yeah, I mean, two things. I've done some training with ICISF. I'm up to the group in individual crisis intervention training. And it was amazing. And I think the one thing that really showed me and allowed me is one, to be silent and just be comfortable in silence sometimes and let that person regurgitate their story so you don't kibosh what they're trying to do. But two is like you said with objectivity is tell them the problem that they just faced that could stem from what they just dealt with. And don't sit there and ask them a bunch of open-ended question because you're right. You're probably going to get, yeah, I'm good. Yeah, I'm good. I don't want to say force because that's a terrible word, but ask them questions that incite what happened on scene and then go into the relational aspect, the relativity, the normalcy like man, that's terrible, dude. I could totally see how you feel like that right now.

01:07:19 Jason:  And then what that does is that puts you in a relationship with them and it breaks down that barrier immediately. And they're like, oh, dang, he gets me. He gets what I went through. Let me dive into this a little bit more and see if he, and so it becomes one of those things. It's important as obviously a peer support specialist too, and I'm sure a clinician as well, to not try to top that person's story, right? So it's a fine line between being relative and being vulnerable and open and not putting your story on top of another person. So I would say that. The second part of that is there are technology avenues and apps and companies right now that have developed proactive ways to engage people that are involved in traumatic calls. We've partnered with a company, I don't know if I can or should say their name on here, but we've partnered with a company that gives us an app for our peer support specialists.

01:08:12 Jason:  And essentially what it does is it ties into our dispatch system. And if this person makes three traumatic calls and we get to decide what the traumatic calls are, okay, this person makes three traumatic calls. They get a little red box next to their name and it pops up on the peer support side and that means that—

01:08:32 Cinnamon:  We've heard about this software. So go ahead and say the company name and we can take it out at need be

01:08:39 Jason:  Mind Based

01:08:42 Cinnamon:  Right. I don't think that's the one we've heard of, but yes, we are aware of software that will do that, that will flag. I think we heard about it in South Bend, Aaron.

01:08:50 Jason:  Okay. I mean, it's not, obviously it's not cheap. I think with more companies jumping on board, prices will probably go down a little bit, just like most things, but it's not cheap, it's effective. I will tell you that. So this red box appears and the peer support specialist will. Click on that box, contact that person, be like, hey man, we've seen you made a lot of shit in the last month. I'm just checking in, seeing how you are, how's the family, you know, like I said, normalize it. Don't be like, man, I saw you made a decapitation and a house fire where a baby lost their lives, like what's going on? Like just kind of normalize it, check in. And then once that check-in happens, that person's box turns yellow if they've been referred to another element of our wellness program, whether that's clinician or chaplaincy and we denote what the disposition was. This person was referred to chaplaincy based on XYZ and it's confidential, right? 

01:09:48 Jason:  We don't know who the person is, okay? And then the other side of that is if they're good, right? And if the peer supports trained specialists that's sitting there talking to them feels like they're good, then they'll turn green and they'll go away. And that's pretty much it. We can pull up yearly, like at the end of the year, we're like, this person was supposed to 138 incidents. We probably need to check in on them again at the end of the year. It just allows us to take a proactive approach. And when I talk about being proactive instead of reactive, it bleeds into so many different avenues as first responders that we have to get ahead of it. And I always say, when I get the opportunity to speak and we talk about the awareness, right? 

01:10:33 Jason:  Like awareness, awareness, awareness, and that's great, that we're aware of there's a problem, but I can be aware of a train coming down the train track and not operate and get off the damn tracks and I'm gonna get hit by that train, right? So awareness is great. And I think that was the first phase of what we were trying to do in this arena. But I think people got comfortable sitting in that phase because awareness somewhat breeds the reactivity side of things. Well, when it happens, we'll do this. We're aware of it, but when it happens. No, this is in our face now. Like firefighters, police officers, EMS dispatchers, they're killing themselves. So we've got to operate. We don't have a choice.

01:11:15 Cinnamon:  You were at a conference the last couple of days. And one of the things I said while I was speaking is I think everyone knows where the amygdala is. Right? Because that I talked the first day and then several speakers the second day said similar, if not duplicative things. And part of my presentation I didn't share because the doctor ahead of me shared it for me. And so I was able to go. So yeah, there's a lot of us that are battling those rooms where you've got the office and then you've got the subject matter expert. And it's hard to find that way to give both something that's valuable.

01:12:02 Jason:  Yeah, you got to adjust, right? Like this thing isn't stagnant by any means. If you don't adjust your program and you don't adjust your speaking, you're going to have some serious issues with some subject matter experts in the room. And it's nerve wracking to sit up there and talk about mental wellness issues with 70 clinicians in the room. You know, cause I say stupid shit like on-off switch and you guys are like, oh no, no, don't say that. You know, and so, but for me—

01:12:28 Cinnamon:  For I say things like arrogant little shits when we're referencing babies. 

01:12:32 Jason:  You guys, they are. Kids ruin everything. I'm just kidding. I have three of them, but they do ruin a lot of things. But no, I mean, I think that being able to communicate the fact that this isn't an awareness course, this isn't a check on the box. This is something that is going to be life altering by all accounts. And I try to communicate that when I go and speak in front of people is, I want this to be different from anything that you've ever experienced before. And Cinnamon, I know that yours is different than anything I've seen before. Absolutely. And rightfully so. Like, I mean, it's no secret, you know, you're unique, you're quirky, you're, yeah, I mean, you're, you're just, and it was cool to hear that. I've sat through a lot of conferences. I can tell the room is lost, you know, and, and I'm sure you have to. And it's sad to see that, especially when it comes to mental wellness, cause it doesn't have to be a drubbing downfall of the world and the fire service. It can be something that's super uplifting.

01:13:36 Cinnamon:  And don't you think that that's the difference between a subject matter expert and being a culturally competent person? My knowledge of the shift cycle is not what makes me culturally competent. The fact that I can talk in a way that lands or keeps your attention, like I know how to talk to you and I can get crucified by the clinical community for the way that I speak. And have been, I have been. And then on the flip side, there's always going to be somebody that doesn't have that way, but I could have given you some of that same information and done it in a button up kind of way. And it's not going to land and Erin can vouch for me on this. I do not take evaluations lightly.

01:14:23 Cinnamon:  Even if somebody really uses the fact that I called baby as arrogant little shits while I was being sarcastic, explaining how we are born to expect love and approval and our needs be met. I won't say it again, because if that's your barrier, if that's your excuse to throw the baby out with the bathwater about what I'm saying, I'll fucking take it out. I don't give a shit. I'll find another way to say it because I'm not going to allow anyone to use my delivery as a reason to justify not listening to the information that I'm sharing because it's crucial. And do I think that I do something wrong? Most of the time, no. And it's not about doing something right or wrong. It's about being effective.And if I hear that somebody doesn't like how I speak, I don't cuss that much anymore. But you know what I do? I show a video of Travis House on TikTok. He can do it. They don't like when I do it. So I show the TikTok. You cannot anger your way out of listening to what I have to say because it's life-saving information.

01:15:32 Jason:  That's so good. Yeah, so good. We talk about the cultural competency. I say that word so much and I think I say it probably too much, but it's like important, right? And when we started our journey with our clinicians, I told our clinical director, I said, look, like you're going to embed in these firehouses. They're going to hate you. They're going to say probably some really inappropriate bad things. I mean, it's gonna be awkward. And she's like, I cannot awkward them. She's like, I've been doing this a long time. And I was like, you're a winner. And so when I knew our organization made it and the program was gonna stick, is when I got a call from one firehouse complaining that the clinical director hadn't come to them yet and was still at a different firehouse. And they were asking questions. They're like, where is she at? Yeah, what about us? Yeah. When's our turn? 

01:16:21 Jason:  You know, we miss Michelle and we have dinner ready and all this stuff. And so it took a while though. It wasn't overnight, you know, she was the witch doctor. She was the wizard. She was all these things. And then Michelle very wittingly said, I think that I need to get more clinicians involved because we're becoming more friends than we are clinical and—

01:16:45 Erin:  We like Michelle. Yay, Michelle.

01:16:47 Jason:  I mean, to get back into the cultural competent thing, I think that that's extremely important. I've sat through a lot of conferences where they have Dr. So-and-so up there from New York speaking on PTSD and the crowd is gone. Like lost, like people getting up. It's embarrassing. And those are usually the guys that are sponsored, like sponsored by 511 and $7,500 to be there, but yet in the little shit room next to them, where there's 20 people, there's somebody who's cultural competent, who's walked in those shoes. Who has been in the fire stations talking to them and they're not sponsored. They're not getting paid. They're just over there doing it for the greater good. And that's kind of where I'm at. So conferences piss me off a lot more than they help. And I finally found one in first responder conferences that actually fucking gets it. And that to me means a lot.

01:17:34 Cinnamon:  I just want to add that we had a friend the other day say, like, I think I'm going to, he actually said this in a joking way, but I'm like, actually that's a great idea is have a training on how to train individuals to be culturally competent. And I was like, here's the catch. How does, because there's almost like a personality to it.. Because these folks are going to try to shock the shit out of you. They want to make you sweat. They want to see you pee your pants or run away crying. And like, not everybody can hack it. And I can't tell you how many times these folks have walked up to me and tried to like, shut me down. Because I'm a five foot nothing little blonde girl. And what the hell do I know? And I'm like, jokes on you, let's go. And that's the thing. Like, and then they're like, oh, there's like that respect.

01:18:21 Cinnamon:  And I'm not trying to like talk us up, but the reality is being a clinician does not mean that you can work with this community. I mean, we know the same stuff, but it's just a told another kind of personality and energy.

01:18:37 Jason:  And I think it's like, you guys could probably go off and do very, do other things that pay better, that are easier, that don't require a lot of—

01:18:46 Erin:  Do you have a list of those things? I'm thinking about a side hustle that actually makes money. Well, so one of my first introductory situations into a firehouse was a lunch table, and it's with a guy who I'm great friends with. He's retired now but they all knew what he was about to do and he handed me a phone and there was a pornographic video on it. And I said, I'll take it as soon as you wipe that shit down. Right? And so everybody busted out laughing because they thought that they're going to be, oh, it's porn, she's not going to know what to do. And I'm like, I'll take the phone, but you need to sanitize that phone before I put it in my hand. Right? So as you're talking about cultural competency and the overuse, that is not where the word was born.

01:19:38 Erin:   It actually was about race and gender and poverty and sexuality when we initially created that concept in the mental health world. But for the first responder world, I can see how it was like, we have a word for it. We gotta explain it out. The same way I feel like we're doing with moral injury now. We've been talking about moral injury and we didn't have that word, or we've been talking about administrative, organizational betrayal, but we didn't have those words. So yeah, it's gonna get old because there's a lot of it, and a desperate need for it. And when we finally find language to explain what we mean, it will get used as much as it's needed, which oftentimes looks like overuse.

01:20:29 Jason:  Yeah. And I think that for me, it's when I go out and speak, you know, and we do use those terms every time we talk. I mean, we're here talking about it, right? And it's important to understand, I'm speaking for myself personally, the overuse of a word to yourself is not accurate to the public that you're presenting in front of. Right. Because, you know, just like I said the other day when we met with the very high ranking delegate, that person had never even heard of first responders committing suicide. So like for me, like I live that every day, every day of my life, I'm in that arena, you know? And so I'm like, well, clearly she knows, you know? And she didn't. And so it's the same with cultural competency, you know? I say that word all the time, but I'm like, there's so many people out there that are probably still searching for the right word to use that don't know it. 

01:21:17 Cinnamon:  Yeah. All right, so I'm going to, Erin has been very patient with you and I, Jason. And so I am gonna be the one who has some self-control because like three hours ago, she could have been saying, we're done. So, ‘cause we can do this all day. This happens with every one of our guests. So we bring passionate people on the show. We are passionate people. We care about this shit. We will talk for days and hours and get fired up and then get sad and then get excited and happy and jokey. We're like the first collection. And at the end of the day, the conversation just never gets to end, even if we wrap up an episode of a podcast.

01:22:03 Cinnamon:  I am so grateful when I came back from El Paso and you popped up in our guest interview email. I'm sure there's a better name for it. But Aaron's like, do you know this guy? And I'm like, oh yeah. Now we got to have him on. And that is what I have loved about traveling with First Responder Conferences and going all over the country is I'm in this little corner of Ohio in the Midwest. And sometimes Erin and I can feel very alone in this work. And then we open it up to the entire country and we're able to meet people like you and we feel part of a larger community. So yeah, it's like when you feel like you're living under a rock and somebody comes hangs out with you under your rock, you don't want it to end. And so we're gonna continue this conversation as we all should. 

01:22:58 Cinnamon:  And I'm just so thankful that I stopped by that fire pit or you sat down at that fire pit. I believe you might've had a cigar. Would that be accurate? I mean, a cigar must go with the mustache. Like they go hand in hand. I was about to say that, yeah. I was about to say that. And hopefully this will be an episode that somebody hears and it changes their life. It changes the way they do their work. It changes the way that they lead. I understand if somebody, like Erin said, a five two or a five three or a barely five foot, like her blonde female comes in who's never caught a fire a day in her life, although I did fight one fire, is now gonna say, you've been doing it wrong this whole time. Like, I'm gonna be a little resistant to that. So how do we talk about the struggle that we want to create that breakthrough?

01:23:50 Cinnamon:  And so today's conversation, I feel very strongly that as our listeners act almost as eavesdroppers into this very passionate dialogue about like, what do we do to convince those stragglers in this, that today what we talked about is gonna change and save people's lives because there's gonna be leadership that hear it, and it's gonna give them a different perspective and they're going to buy into this and it's gonna just trickle all the way down and somebody is gonna reach out to a peer or a chaplain or a clinician and see that this isn't the only way out. 

01:24:31 Erin:  Yeah, and we do see it. Our guests have shared with us time and time again about they listened to your show and this happened and it's so fantastic. And if they don't get interrupted in terms of their way of thinking as far as wellness goes and leadership, then we must wait till they retire. But then we get to start being proactive in like the academies and everything else from jump. And so we can wait you out, man. We can wait you out. Y'all have been inhaling smoke and stuff. So we'll just keep, keep at it. Keep at it. 

01:25:04 Cinnamon:  A half a generation left to go. 

01:25:06 Erin:  So sick. All right. Thank you so much, Jason, and my pleasure. Our pleasure.

01:25:19 Erin:  Thank you for joining us for today's episode of After the Tones Drop. Today's show has been brought to you by Whole House Counseling. As a note, After the Tones Drop is for informational purposes only and does not constitute for medical or psychological advice. It is not a substitute for professional healthcare advice, diagnosis, or treatment. Please contact a local mental health professional in your area if you are in need of any assistance. You can also visit after and click on our resources tab for an abundance of helpful information. And we would like to give a very special thank you and shout out to Vens Adams, Yeti, and Sanda for our show's music.